Vice Prime Minister Gennady Zubko:

Recently in power – a new responsible for decentralization.

Volodymyr Groysman, not having started, went (whether for promotion or exile) to parliament. At the same time, however, assured that he did not forget anything and left nothing. And that from a new chair it will be easier to lobby with the adoption of basic bills.

The new Deputy Prime Minister Gennady Zubko considers himself quite competent to complete the predecessor and the direct implementation of the reform.

We talked to the deputy head of government, of course, not only about decentralization. Because his duties are quite wide. It is only to restore the Donbass what is worth it.

The conversation turned out to be difficult. But, thank God, it is not about some far -reaching plans that have been usually discussed with ministers for the last 10 years, but about the specific steps that need to be taken in a specific time of time. About those steps, for the absence or imitation of which the tooth will have to divide the responsibility with the team he swore.

About responsibility, decentralization and those who want to bury the reform

– “I’m ready to support everyone who supports Poroshenko. Since we need to win.” If I’m not mistaken, Gennady Grigorovich is your quote?
– You are not mistaken. Word to word.

– You can clarify that or who came to win this office personally?

—The people to power and disbelief in a better future. This applies not only to me, but also to our entire team, which gave quite specific public promises. No one will believe Ukraine if the authorities do not go for reforms. And this is an axiom that can be clearly traced both in public sentiment within the country and in the process of negotiations with the IMF. The loan of trust is almost exhausted. However, the first important steps are still taken. The Association Agreement with the EU was signed, elections to the Parliament were held, a coalition agreement was adopted, the government was formed, its program was approved, the state budget was adopted. As a result, we all ended up in one boat that should go in a completely specific and certain direction, despite the storms and storms that interfere with the rowing.

– In this boat, we dispersed our place more than 23 years ago. However, today, let’s be frank, they are forced to go through the water, colored by the blood of thousands of dead. And this is a sacred swim. Apparently, history and rowers will be able to apologize to you who have announced to be helm, mistakes, but changing the course because of incompetence, sabotage, theft of supplies – no. Have you been aware of this when you agreed to take such a high state post?

– For the last two years, I worked as Deputy Chairman of the Verkhovna Rada Committee on Regional Development, Construction and Housing. Then, as you know, directed the regional policy in the Presidential Administration. And, in general, I was directly involved in the issue that I was entrusted with the Vice Prime Minister. Therefore, the importance of the chosen course I am aware of and can withstand it.

-I have analyzed your bills in parliament-mostly they still concern the construction sphere. Which is probably logically, taking into account the profile of your business – the Zhytomyr Factory Plant, but not quite, given that you have been entrusted with key reform – decentralization of power in Ukraine.

—I would still look in the complex of my powers, the main purpose of which is a balanced regional policy and the development of regions. And here is the construction, housing and communal services, and decentralization of the public administration, but not as a goal, but as a tool that can provide this development of regions. Therefore, everything is logical to me.

-A scandal related to the appointment of a decentralization department in the AP of your protege-a former legal advisor of a 26-year-old Kateryna Kodonenko enclosure plant, was also logical for you?

—Vas is confused by the age or fears that young people cannot take responsibility?

– I am always embarrassed by incompetence.

—Kodonenko was an assistant to the People’s Deputy for two years and is aware of regional cuisine and profile bills. In addition, the sphere of competences of the Department, which, incidentally, did not have a strategic component in the AP. It was, rather, an operational tactical center, where proposals for reform were flooded from local communities, and they had to be properly processed and organized.

-And did you bring tactics to the ministry or still strategists?

“I have not come to some new place, you do not have to invent bicycles here either in a strategic plan-and the Verkhovna Rada Committee, and the AP worked closely with the Vice Prime Minister Groysman on reform, nor in personnel-key deputies in the topic and know what to do.

– But people’s deputies do not consider it. In my opinion, their “bicycle” has become a relevant Dmitry Isaenka Deputy on construction today, who was allegedly exposed in frauds with the status of ATO participant in order to avoid lustration.

– I would not hurry here with the conclusions. For three months, Isaenko built fortification buildings in the ATO area. Moreover, it is a very professional and experienced specialist. In the situation it is necessary to understand quietly. We have already created a commission that will do it. (However, Prime Minister Yatsenyuk, obviously, decided not to understand and literally the next day after the interview was released by Isaenko from his post. —I)

– In the question of Isaenenko’s participation in the ATO, the dots over “and” will arrange the investigation, but who will put in the framework of logic and common sense the perseverance of those who know exactly how to destroy the state machine, but does not imagine what to do then – a really question. By the way, did you find a response to him when you oversee the development of presidential changes to the Lustration Act as a deputy Lozhkin?

—The administrations did not work on changes to the law on lustration. They only held meetings on the procedure of conducting inspections under the law on lustration.

– It is a pity that the Venice Commission was more concerned about the logic, not the state, which is on its fault and is obliged to find a solid path between populism and the effective purification of power. But this is a topic of a separate conversation, but we go further – to decentralization. Please declare a step -by -step algorithm for reform. With specific terms and beacons of responsibility.

-First, we approved the budget on the basis of a new legislative framework-the new tax and budget codes. It is about decentralization of finances and new powers of local councils. The adopted scheme will also be the basis of budgets of regional and local levels. Of course, the issue is not fully done. The Budget Code should be improved in accordance with the adopted concept of reform. As a result, we must come to a point where 60% of all taxes will reside in the regions. And this is an absolute revolution of the public administration system, where more than 70% of funds were going up and then distributed between the regions under state programs.

Secondly, we will need to promptly adopt the law on voluntary association of communities and the law on the transfer of powers of the State Architectural and Construction Commission to be transferred to the second reading.

Third, in order to finally share the powers between local communities and the central government, it is necessary to amend more than 100 laws within the reform.

However, to take this step and to transfer powers from state administrations to the regional and district councils, which will be able to create executive committees and exercise executive power, possibly only after a change of the Constitution. As well as streamline the Kiev management system. As well as clearly differentiating the areas of responsibility of communities and ministries of education, health and social policy, which the state does not catastrophically do not finance. In recent years, a hole of 12 billion has pledged local budgets, instead of spending money on development.

The President stated that the Constitutional Council in the triangle AP – Cabinet – BP will be established in the near future. And within the framework of the Council, together with the Associations of Cities and Local Councils, all the details and nuances of the future constitutional reform will be considered. But we do not have much time to go to the local election on a new state management system. Two sessions. What is enough only in the presence of political will.

– A very accurate remark. The Cabinet and Parliament can also do 90% of the budget, and then say that communities have not coped and failed reform. And they will be right, because it would be logical: a) to create self -sufficient and able to manage communities, b) to give them powers, to give them money. But the law on community associations is not adopted, and the basic finances, therefore, will go to the district level – district state administrations. Small cities are screaming about discrediting reform and centralizing power.

“I said that the community association law will be adopted in the near future. And according to it, the Budget Code will be finalized.

– But you did not specify in what form the law on community association will be adopted. Are you aware of the profile committee of the Verkhovna Rada yesterday?
-Of course. The law is agreed.

-And what, your deputy bad weather did not say that under pressure from the representatives of the Motherland, they were thrown from it by number 12-about promising plans for community associations, which are approved by regional administrations and, in fact, is the skeleton of the association and future territorial-administrative division? Thus, the combination process can be imprinted. Given the expected reform resistance – many village heads and councils will lose power due to the consolidation of communities – the authors of the reform believe that the law can no longer be passed. Did you meet Anatoly Tkachuk, Yuri Ganushchak in general?

“I have not yet understood yesterday’s decision, but in any case it is the thought of the committee. And there are also deputies, a coalition agreement, finally. As for the authors of the reform, literally on the third day of my admission to the post there was a round table, which was attended by all experts involved in the reform, as well as representatives of associations. About Article 12: This procedure has already been spelled out in the Budget Code, under which a prospective plan can be approved, and the issue of financing is accepted at the Cabinet of Ministers level.

– However, the Committee voted against the Budget Code. In general, if you look at the situation in the committee, it is not very favorable for reform. On the one hand, incompetence. Of its numerous members, only four are related to local self -government, and even some with a great stretch. On the other hand – “Motherland”. Committee Chairman Sergey Vlasenko is a faction member. As, however, Vadim Ivchenko, the chairman of the Association of Village and Town Councils. The position of Yulia Tymoshenko and her parties, which is always on the guard of the rural electorate, I think you should not remind. You have run for her in 2012. Thus, a player who can help the authorities (in the absence of political will) to bury the reform, – he decided.

—This do not talk about politics and “Motherland”, but about the real state of things. We decided to change the government’s system in the country. Point. Therefore, we must undergo the process of unification and formation of self -sufficient communities capable of assuming a significant part of the powers and finances from the central government. But we are not the first to pass this path. There is the experience of other states. I want to say that nowhere was a rigid compulsory method of combining. And in our law it is rigid – because finances will receive only those who will unite according to the already made plan. But what is imposed from above without discussion does not work.

However, at some point time has come. That is, I talk about some clearly marked time backlash, in which people on the ground could look at, think and decide which one and on what conditions to unite. For example, in Sweden, the discussion of this issue lasted three years, after which a volitional decision was made to associate at the legislative level. Considering the positions and thoughts of the communities themselves. As a result, those who wanted, united, who did not want to but could not keep themselves – were annexed.

– Do you really think that we have three years to discuss?

“We do not have such preferences. I will say more, only by giving the impetus to the regions, we can get out of the internal economic and political crisis. Everything is interdependent. Many processes in the same utility system, the same energy efficiency programs – the installation of meters, etc. is easier and more profitable to run from below. We have tried for 23 years from above – it did not work. And today it is a matter of preservation of statehood. But the communities need powers and finances. Therefore, there is no so much time.

– And how much do you think?

“To the end of the year. Prior to the start of the local election campaign, which we have to carry out already within the framework of the new created enlarged communities. On the ground has long been a dialogue about the unification. Experts, ministry representatives all 2014 worked on the ground. Everyone knows the plans of the association. That is, the process is launched. We have a few months to make conflicting moments and take a key step to create communities. And for this we really have to work with both the Committee and the MPs to return Article 12 to the law with clarification: a) a certain flexibility of the prospective plan b) the time of the discussion, c) a clear term of community association.

That is, communities that are united in accordance with the prospective plan, but have the possibility of some slight adjustment – immediately receive financial support for the state. Others see the process, understand its benefits and are able to oppose the village head, who is afraid to lose the portfolio. Only in this way will we be able to knock out some arguments in the political forces that wish you said to bury the reform.

About Donbas, his recovery and Crimean direction

– Do you restore Donbas? Do you help refugees too?

—Donbass actually quite rigidly showed what self -government is and why decentralization is needed. After all, on the liberated ones, and what to hide, in the occupied territories, everything lay on the shoulders of local communities, mayors, communal services, most of whom were not run anywhere, but remained their duty.

Now about competence. As for temporarily displaced persons, today it is the parish of Vice Prime Minister Vyacheslav Kirilenko, which secures the entire humanitarian block. But I can say that 800,000 citizens are registered today. In fact, those who moved – 650 thousand people. The scale of this story is not compared to either the Chornobyl disaster or with Georgia … It must be acknowledged that such a challenge did not come to any country. The issue of employment of people, the feeling of a real perspective and their future in Ukraine is very acute. However, from 650,000, only 40,000 were employed about 6 thousand.

– Others do not turn – they know that it is useless. By the way, about the comparability of the scale. However, the number of victims should be measured, but a measure of responsibility of the authorities. I somehow said Vladimir Borisovich that in the same Georgia temporary housing for displaced persons was very quickly built by international donor organizations, which were given all the conditions. Including zero taxes. And only in the ninth month of the war, we were adopted by the relevant law, the mechanism of which has not worked to this day.

“Probably, this fact should be accepted as criticism. But I think the new parliament will be more turning.

– The issue of milk thistle was particularly acute in the liberated territories of Donbass. For example, in Slavyansk, Semenivka and other famous cities. According to my information, Kyiv promised three subsidies last year: 10.5 million for the restoration of two multi -storey buildings in Slavyansk, 15 million – for the restoration of the Siversky Donetsk -Donebass channel, 150 million from a general subsidy with the Luhansk region. Also-50 million from the general fund for socio-economic development. From all this pile of gifts, the regions received only 15 million. This is because the authorities are not sure who will get the territory and does not want to spend?

—The process of finance is really critical.

– Like loyalty to Ukraine – love tongue does not return! – People from Semenivka are also at the level of critical mark. In this way, do residents of the destroyed cities hint at how they should fight for Ukraine in the event of advanced DNR troops to the borders of the region?

Nonsense, but six months after the liberation of Slavic and other territories in the Classifier of the Civil Service with the NA, there is no mention of the ATO. And the regional administration can only get a subsidy for the restoration from the State Budget reserve fund through this service. The area simply cannot draw up documents!

Six months after liberation, the state failed to develop a clear mechanism and criteria for compensation for the private sector. But hundreds of houses are destroyed! Have you been in Semenivka? They help people what can only survive enterprises and sponsors. What is happening in general, Gennady Grigorovich?

– In Semenivka was. The resolution on compensation to private criteria was prepared by the previous government, but not adopted due to lack of funds. Every day the area of ​​the temporarily occupied territory takes 90 million UAH for electricity, gas and UAH 100 million per day – the cost of the army. Moreover, we had the definition of the borders of the ATO zone – during the offensive of Russian troops, borders were constantly changing. And that’s really a problem.

We are currently preparing a new government resolution, which has developed a mechanism for raising funds for compensation and restoration of infrastructure from local budgets and other sources, including the EU. Negotiations are underway with Germany. A joint statement has already been signed between the governments of the two countries about granting Germany’s credit guarantees of 500 million euros for the restoration of infrastructure not only Donetsk and Luhansk regions, but also Kharkiv, Dnipropetrovsk and Zaporizhzhya. Moreover, the International Conference in March to support reforms in Ukraine will be held in March, which will be based on a plan of stabilization of Ukraine-2015-17. There is a Donbass section.

– The whole thing is. In order for the funds from other sources to reach the addressee quickly, a transparent and operational scheme of their passage from donor to the contractor is required. Otherwise – all bluff.

—The government prepares a change for resolution 1027, according to which the procedure of passing the funds will be greatly simplified. I absolutely agree that everything concerning the civil service is long and wrapped. The moon is only needed to undergo humanitarian aid registration from Donbass. The lacerized state machine does not cope with the challenges of war and economic crisis. That is, deregulation of state functions and procedures is a paramount task.

– Gennady Moskal yesterday on the committee quite sharply spoke about both the state and parliamentary machine, which do not allow to operate the region. The Law on the Special Management Regime in the liberated and occupied territories has not been adopted.

– The head of the Lugansk regional administration, unlike Donetsk, where district and regional councils are present and work, is really difficult. There is no legally elected regional council. The head of the Regional State Administration is not able to promptly appoint people for positions and distribute funds. He goes a way that no one has passed. He has already prepared, and the Verkhovna Rada of the previous convocation adopted the law on the movement of courts, regional instances in Severodonetsk (hospital, treasury, justice), as well as about changing administrative centers, which helped re -register the displaced persons.

We work in constant contact, organized assistance from other regions of Ukraine. Six schools from 15 social objects of Luhansk region have already been restored. Before the New Year, a successful operation to deliver humanitarian aid in the territory, controlled by militants, was performed to social institutions that have not been possible before.

– The work of the Donbass Recovery Agency is already filled with some content or so far on paper?

– The agency’s provision has already been adopted, even the first loan of 200 million euros with the European Investment Bank has been signed. The procedure of selection of the manager is currently ongoing. The first designated was successfully chased. 70% of the infrastructure objects of Donbass are destroyed – all this is the sphere of future activities of the agency. Which, however, should balance their role and financing with the regional administrations so that they can also promptly dispose of finances and bring their lapt in the process.

At the same time, in the process of restoration of the region, not just patch the holes and latches to change, but comprehensively approach the adjustment of life support systems.

-Unfortunately, I did not find a clear list of your powers on the Cabinet of Ministers, but the media had information that when it was distributed duties between the Vice Prime Ministry, Crimea also got you.

-When it comes to the migrants of Crimea and Donbass, these issues went to the Department of Vice Prime Minister Kirilenko, the regional development of Crimea and Sevastopol-in my management. But now it’s an occupied territory.

– And, as I understand, we have nothing to talk about? Gennady Grigorovich, in no way I want to reward you with unnecessary responsibilities – you have enough of them, but I will not understand why the Cabinet did not create a special body on Crimea and in general on the issues of occupied territories. In May, there was a NSDC decision in May. If we say that both Crimea and Donbas are ours, then why in the government there is no person who could talk substantially about the situation there, the prospects and plans of our country for them? Instead, Russia immediately created the appropriate ministry, just annexed Crimea.

– I think it is the right question and is ready to raise it at a government meeting.

– Then do not forget to inform the government, curator Vyacheslav Kirilenko and personally to the premiere and that after the assignment of the Peninsula the status of the free economic zone, all migrants from the Crimea became foreigners in Ukraine (non -residents). Those who want to cross the border, they are exposed to many obstacles, but trade hoarses freely cross the border, paying the taxes of the occupier.

– Increasing control at the border is conditioned solely by national security issues. After all, you know that because of the threat of terrorist attacks we have closed airports, as well as increased throughput and reduced the number of corridors in the ATO area. At the same time, control over passenger transport and freight is two different things. Automobile traffic can be controlled and inspected. Railway is much more complicated. The safety of our citizens and their protection against terrorist attacks are more important than the freight movement within the framework of the free economic zone.

About housing, construction, etc.

– Let’s go to the main points that you have outlined in terms of reforming the utility system and construction sphere.

– All future steps in these areas are directly related to decentralization. In fact, we have to give the communities we will create the necessary tools so that they can earn. Within the framework of laws that will be adopted in the near future: about housing and communal services, where we clearly distinguish between the contractor and the consumer; On energy saving and energy service companies.

As for the destruction of monopolies in the utility market, the BP has already adopted a law in the first reading, which will allow the ACMH to choose with whom to enter into contracts on certain types of service. And here, of course, an important position of the Antimonopoly Committee, which should pay close attention to this area.

Moreover, the first reading adopted a DABK Law, according to which the powers of the commission will be transferred to the place. In the previous parliament, as you know, this law was not missed. But this time, I am personally and repeatedly named the name of every deputy who will not support this law.

– You recently stated a program of affordable housing. You know, if in peacetime the words of your predecessors about it were little worth it, then in the military, I confess, they can be heard quite strange.

– And nothing surprise. I am a builder and always remember that the economy can only start construction. And we must give the impetus of the process. Moreover, in such an extreme situation. There are several directions here. On the one hand, we have companies that can enter the international market. And we are seriously considering the proposals that came from Kazakhstan. On the other hand, we will build housing in Ukraine. But looking at the concept and approaches to available housing. At the end of February we will present our concept.

– What is the main idea of ​​a new approach?

– Although strange, in decentralization. The state is simply doomed to rely on strong communities that are already and which will be created after unification. And stimulate active. Where there is an active mayor, the Council, there is the ability and desire to attract investments where new jobs are created, there is a priority task of the state to help the process, give impetus, develop available leasing or credit state programs that will allow people to build and buy housing.

We have Poland near us. There, since 1991, they have been going this way. Look at their communities – neat energy efficient homes, clean streets, working cultural centers … We look and do. Moreover, this state today opened the doors of cooperation for us.

– And what can you prevent you?

– War and distrust of investors. And if the first depends not only on us, the second – exclusively. I repeat that all possible confidence limits in power in Ukraine are exhausted.

Source: www.gazeta.dt.ua